Pages Navigation Menu

"Where the WORD is sharper than any two edged sword"

The Skeptic And A Believer Dialogue

The Skeptic On Noah's Ark

Because Sometimes The Skeptic Wishes To Remain One At All Cost

 

BELIEVER: Hey did you hear they found a huge boat in the mountains of Ararat?

SKEPTIC: So what’s your point?

BELIEVER: That it’s Noah’s Ark and the dimensions match up perfectly to the description in the Bible.

SKEPTIC: Ahh that doesn’t prove that it was Noah’s ark. Besides, that’s just another myth from the Bible.

BELIEVER: Well, they found the name “NOAH” etched into gopher wood, in the side of the boat.

SKEPTIC: So, they didn’t find a surname did they? Still not enough evidence.

BELIEVER: I guess there just never is…

Related Posts

35 Comments

  1. It might be better to use an example that hasn’t been debunked as a fraud. They did not in fact find a huge boat up there.

    If what you are saying is that a skeptic would never accept any evidence for God at all, then you’re not describing skeptics so much as “deniers”. There’s a difference. A true skeptic says, “Show me evidence and I will believe.” It’s kind of the skeptics’ mantra. A denier will turn away from evidence because he refuses to believe even in the face of evidence.

  2. “It might be better to use an example that hasn’t been debunked as a fraud.”
    >>>

    I’m not aware of this “debunked ” example. Can you please share?

    “A true skeptic says, “Show me evidence and I will believe.”
    >>>

    I guess then, the skeptics that wish to remain skeptical for skeptic’s sake are then the deniers as you say. I can hear ya on that. Thank you.

  3. So…this happened? With the Noah engraving and all? Reference please?

    • It’s an example, but if it did happen, the outcome would be the same for most skeptics.

    • I think that’s an unfounded assumption. You shouldn’t speak on behalf of a large group of people, especially people you don’t identify with.

      I would do my best to confirm the age of the ark, but if it checked out, I’d revise my opinion on the story of Noah. I require evidence, good evidence, but that’s all.

  4. “I think that’s an unfounded assumption. You shouldn’t speak on behalf of a large group of people, especially people you don’t identify with.”
    >>>

    Respectfully I have to disagree. For starters I do identify with such a group. One being that I have spent much time in conversing with atheists and I know the mentality well. Second I’m a former atheist and skeptic myself. Before I became a Christian, the best proof text, argument, or discovery, just wasn’t enough.

    One example of extraordinary evidence for the supernatural -where Occam grows a beard- and the resurrection of Jesus is the Shroud Of Turin. Rather than staying current with the latest scientific discoveries of the shroud, and how it can’t be reproduced even today, I’m getting decades old research thrown at me from atheists/skeptics that has been thoroughly addressed and refuted. It’s my opinion that Noah’s Ark (if found) would be treated the same way. Thank you for your comment.

  5. I would wager there are more things that would convince me that I’m wrong than there are that would convince you that you are wrong.

    What evidence specifically would lead you to dropping your faith?

    • If you could prove the resurrection was a sham. That would convince me not to believe.

    • How specifically could one prove to you that the resurrection was a sham?

    • One way is to give a better explanation for the data.

    • What data are you referencing other than the Bible?

    • Isn’t any natural explanation better than a supernatural explanation? Isn’t conspiracy of faked data more likely than magic that has never been quantified or observed in any reliable fashion? We have plenty of that records that are manipulated and stories that are are made-up–we at least know that this is possible, even when it isn’t probable. Why do you suport the explanation that we don’t even know is possible?

    • What’s your explanation? I’m listening.

    • Answer my questions first. I’m not even sure what I need to explain.

    • What would convince you? BTW, thank you for your dialogue.

    • I wrote about that here: http://deityshmeity.blogspot.com/2012/07/extraordinary-evidence.html I also interviewed a bunch of atheists asking them the same question.

      A few short answers:

      1. an iron-clad fine-tuning argument would convince me that some form of God exists. By iron-clad, I simply mean showing that the current problems with the fine tuning argument are not problems.

      2. statistical evidence that prayer for a specific God works would convince me that a specific God is real.

      3. a prophet with detailed, accurate knowledge of the future given to him by God would convince me.

      4. God himself divinely changing my mind, which is likely within his power.

  6. “Answer my questions first. I’m not even sure what I need to explain.”
    >>>

    We’re still talking about the resurrection. The data we’re speaking of comes from the various New Testament manuscripts and corroborated by other first century writings. Another issue to address of the data, is to explain the founding/spread of Christianity without a resurrection. Take care.

    • The easiest explanation of the founding and spread of Christianity without the resurrection would be the founding and spreading of other religions. It happens. People want to believe in something and like to organize.

    • You really haven’t addressed anything.

    • If you don’t think I’ve addressed anything, then we aren’t reading the same comments.

      I don’t think there is any evidence or explanation against the resurrection you would accept and you can’t provide an example. I can only reach the conclusion that your original post works better in reverse than in its current form.

    • If you’d like to discuss this further perhaps we can talk on Skype or in our chatroom?

  7. “I don’t think there is any evidence or explanation against the resurrection you would accept and you can’t provide an example.”
    >>>

    I think at this point we are talking past each other. Lets recap. You asked me: “What evidence specifically would lead you to dropping your faith?” and I mentioned that if you could prove the resurrection was a sham as an example. You then asked me how could one specifically prove to me that the resurrection was a sham. I replied with “One way is to give a better explanation for the data.” Now you’re flipping the script, saying I “can’t provide an example”. For one, you didn’t ask for examples (please point out where you did, perhaps I overlooked something) and second, you’re the one supposed to be giving me an explanation of all the data surrounding the resurrection.

    • I’m asking for an example now. And I’ll ask again, isn’t every (however unlikely) natural explanation a better explanation than the supernatural? Here’s a better explanation: someone moved Jesus’s body and posed as Jesus. Here’s another: the accounts of Jesus post-death were fabricated by the people who wanted to start Christianity and gain power. Here’s another: Jesus was never killed, he faked his own death.

      These are all much more likely than a supernatural resurrection because we at least know they are possible and similar events have happened, just on a smaller scale.

  8. “And I’ll ask again, isn’t every (however unlikely) natural explanation a better explanation than the supernatural?”
    >>>

    I would be much more open to an alternative theory that actually addresses every part of the data coherently without gaps. None of which you have offered do, or any elsewhere. All of the alternative theories (thus far) have been aptly refuted throughout the centuries and addressed by scholars and theologians. It’s apparent that you’ll accept any natural explanation -for unexplained X, Y, or Z events- over any paranormal/supernatural one no matter how inadequate the natural one is. Such a case, is confirmation bias or perhaps “naturalism in the gaps”. It is my position, that, sometimes the paranormal explanation is the better answer given the details. I could think of a few examples.

    • What examples? And I know some scholars don’t even think Jesus existed and many think his miracles never happened. What part of the data do I need to account for?

    • Grundy,

      I’ll give a handful of examples later, but for now I want to stay on point about the resurrection. I’m not going to address the “Jesus Myth” nonsense either. The consensus of liberal and conservative scholars alike affirm his existence, as there’s tons of evidence. On a quick side note, here’s an interview of agnostic scholar Bart Ehrman refuting the “Jesus Mythers”. Now, onto the data.

      Here’s the four main points that need to be addressed:

      1. Jesus’ Burial

      2. The discovery of his empty tomb.

      3. His postmortem appearances

      4. The origin of the disciple’s belief in his resurrection

      I found a video (lecture; link below) that gives us some great info to consider. Please watch it when you have time. Thank you for your mature sincere manner in this discussion that we’ve been having. I’m enjoying conversing with you. Take care.

      Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus (William Lane Craig)
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5wWnPK7tiY

    • BTW,

      Your profile picture makes it hard for me to sleep at night or open my freezer ;)

    • I think my explanations cover those four points just fine.

      I agree that there is enough evidence to say that Jesus existed, but if we are going to be referencing Ehrman in the future, it will probably help my argument more than yours.

      It’s been nice having a civil discussion with you too. Sorry for the picture, it is of Solomon Grundy, a comic book villain.

    • “What examples?”
      >>>

      Here are some examples of the paranormal where naturalism takes a back seat in understanding.

      1. The Shroud Of Turin

      2. 1-3 mile wide UFOs show up on NASA video footage from Shuttle Columbia’s camera. It was the STS: 75 Mission in 1996, famously known as “The Tether Incident”.

      3. The 1917 Fatima Portugal incident. There were over 70,000 simultaneous witnesses from various faiths, cultures, and backgrounds that witnessed the apparition. I don’t believe that it was Mary, but I do believe it was a paranormal occurrence.

      4. Nina Kulagina, was a Russian woman who was known for her telekinesis. She also stopped the heart of a frog in front of a team of scientists in a controlled study.

      5. There are accounts of Near Death Experiences where people knew and described things they they couldn’t possibly have known. There are some instances where an individual was in a coma and had no brain activity, yet was able to describe in detail what was going on in his/her room (and other places/wings in the hospital).

      6. There have been miracles of people being healed by various aliments.

      7. Remote Viewing has on many occasions been rather accurate. There are even institutes worldwide that teach remote viewing. It was first taught in the CIA, then later passed down to the Army via MKULTRA. I’m not advocating to do it however for various reasons.

      8. There are accounts of demonically possessed individuals who spoke languages that they had not learned.

  9. “I think my explanations cover those four points just fine.”
    >>>

    This is where I’ll say that we’ll have the agree to disagree. Not one of those explanations addresses all four points coherently or even at all.

    1″…someone moved Jesus’s body and posed as Jesus.”
    >>>

    This doesn’t account for point 3 or 4.

    2. “Here’s another: the accounts of Jesus post-death were fabricated by the people who wanted to start Christianity and gain power.”
    >>>

    This doesn’t account for 1 or 4.

    3. “Here’s another: Jesus was never killed, he faked his own death.”
    >>>

    This doesn’t account for 1 or 4.

    • There are your four points, correct?

      1. Jesus’ Burial
      2. The discovery of his empty tomb.
      3. His postmortem appearances
      4. The origin of the disciple’s belief in his resurrection

      ″…someone moved Jesus’s body and posed as Jesus.” Someone posed as Jesus after he died, so it accounts for 3 which leads to 4.

      “Here’s another: the accounts of Jesus post-death were fabricated by the people who wanted to start Christianity and gain power.” Jesus did die and was buried in this scenario, so it certainly accounts for 1. And how does this not account for 4 again?

      “Here’s another: Jesus was never killed, he faked his own death.” If he faked his own death, he faked his own burial accounting for 1. And, again, his appearances post “death” would surely lead to 4.

    • Did you watch the video? It gives us some answers to your questions.

    • Can you at least admit that my scenarios work, even if you don’t accept them?

  10. “Can you at least admit that my scenarios work, even if you don’t accept them?”
    >>>

    But that’s the point, because they don’t work, that’s the very reason why I don’t accept them. If they were workable or even plausible then, yes, I would consider them. Surely you know that even skeptical scholars have debunked such ideas decades/centuries ago? Scores of scholars (hostile and friendly) already addressed alternative theories such as the “swoon theory” -espoused by Heinrich Paulus but debunked by David Strauss- etc.

    I can give you a list of some of their names, books, and quotes if you’d like. Perhaps tomorrow I will anyways. To be honest, at this point I feel that you’re not really willing to put in the work to investigate this, to get to the bottom of it. I assure you that I have, and will continue to do so. Perhaps we should lay this to rest. Have a good night Grundy.

  11. “I can give you a list of some of their names, books, and quotes if you’d like.”
    >>>

    Here are a few that you can download for free:

    1. The resurrection of Jesus
    http://archive.org/details/theresurrectiono00orrjuoft

    2. A treatise on the law of evidence
    http://archive.org/details/atreatiseonlawe04greegoog

    3. A New Life of Jesus
    http://archive.org/details/anewlifejesus01stragoog